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Dan Duchaine Interview

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Posted by Paul

Interview with Dan Duchaine

Originally appeared in Hardcore Muscle, Issue 8, November 1995

            We sat down with Dan Duchaine and conducted the following interview. What did we think of Dan? – Very nice guy and where most people I hold in high esteem don't hold up to my previous notions of them- he pretty much exceeded them. One thing I admire about Dan Duchaine is that he can really focus on subjects – incredibly, I might add. If this seems trivial to you, most likely you would see what I'm talking about if you ever talk to him. You watch him talk and he is targeted in on that subject. I came away from the interview with the thought that Dan Duchaine has so much knowledge in his head that sometimes even he has trouble getting his thoughts out because of the volumes and volumes of info he has up there. Very open, very candid and not afraid to call them like he sees them. I had a blast doing this interview because you could really see Dan click ‘on' and roll when he finds the subject interesting. We thank him for his time; he definitely is a busy man. This guy is a problem solver, a theorist, and a researcher and a damn good one at that. We hope we didn't pass over any questions you might have for the "Guru" – Here we go:

HM:       Can you give us a brief overview of your new book Body Opus and when it will be available?

DAN:    It is way behind schedule but hopefully by January 1^st it should be available throughMM2000. It is a diet book. It's probably too long, too complicated, but it has three sets of diets in it. Your traditional high carb-low calorie, then the isometric diet which is equal amounts of carbs, fats and protein and then the Body Opus, a.k.a. anabolic diet which is another thing we did in the Ult dieting handbook in 1982 and another creation from Michael Zumpano's rebound training system from 1980. One of those three diets will be applicable for someone but the diets in this book are not necessarily for people overweight or fat. It is mainly for athletes who are normal- maybe 15%- and want to get down very low for one reason or another. And I slowly emptied my head of every scrap and tricks and answered questions like “Why is it that diets stop working?” and “What can you do to fix it?”And all the drugs, all the nutrients and there is a big section on diuretics which isn't really applicable to everyone  but maybe the 100 or so athletes that really need it will read it here and not end up in the hospital.

HM:     Zumpano's rebound diet is that with the insulin effect during the workout that…?

DAN:    No, it was the first thing of restricting carbs radically. It was a ten day program and it wasn't to lose fat as much as it was to gain muscle. It was like 7 days of carb restriction and 3 days of carbing up – which was too long because it didn't fit very well into a schedule and people were getting overtrained too easily. I condensed it down to 5 days carb restricting and 2 days carbs … which is basically the same anabolic diet which Mauro Dipausquale has, but he's not too precise with what kinds of fats to eat, and what kind of proteins and how to carb up. He just says to eat anything and that is not exactly true. Some people can eat anything and do very well for the 2 days but a lot of people need more precision on how many carbs and how often- it's all in there.  So it's about 500 pages and it will condense down to 300 pages and hopefully we will keep the price well under $30.00- because I don't like the idea of $50.00 for you know … whatever- a Leo Costa book.

HM:     We hear you are currently working with Next Nutrition, in a research and design capacity …

DAN:    Yes I have an office there.

HM:     Can we look forward to anything new and innovative coming from this label in the future?

DAN:    Of course you know that Next Nutrition would never do a copy of anything anymore. I mean Next Nutrition started out being a copy cat – mostly they ripped off Champion Nutrition when Michael Zumpano was the leader. In fact I helped David Jenkins (Next Nutrition owner) on how to duplicate Metabolol – no big thing.  Interesting enough, back in 1984 or so, Scott Connelly already had a crude version of MET-RX. When I met Connelly at his gym in Santa Clara, he was already peddling the MET-RX back then in hospital situations. Zumpano actually improved on his formula and came out with Metabolol. Frankly Metabolol is pretty good and probably just as good as MET-RX, although MET-RX has spent a lot of money on starch technology, so it tastes better. But as far as protein, it is a pretty common protein.

HM:     On the fats, you seem to say…

DAN:    Yes, it is a new product called ID cubed (that's ID³). It's an offshoot of my isometric diet and yea, I think it is unique in that it is the first powdered product that has a very high fat in it. As high as I can get before the powder starts to clump up on me. Ideally I would like to have one-third fat, but production-wise it's not feasible. Hopefully we will have close to 30% fat in there. It's an interesting array of fats- a little bit of MCT's, sunflower oil (a new genetic strain which is high in oleic) which is a mono-saturated fat, and it will have CLA's (conjugated linoleic acids)… which I believe is the first product to have that in there… very expensive- it raises the retail cost of the product over $10.00 a can… but 2 servings a day will give you all the benefits of CLA's which means inhibition of the prostaglandin 2 series, the two main prostaglandins that cause catabolism. Also there is another thing called Hydroxy Methyl Butrate, which you will be reading about in MM2000. It has only been recently approved for human consumption. It is a bonafide anticatabolic. It is really interesting the way it works. It inhibits muscle trauma through a workout by increasing the amount of intramuscular fat so instead of using predominately type 2 muscle fibers, you are also engaging type 1 which is slow twitch… so that allows more tension over more fibers, so you have less trauma on the type 2. It translates to lowered Methylhystedine in the urine and Creatinine Phosphokynase in the blood.  Those are two markers that tell you how much trauma. And in human studies using HMB (on only 2500 calories) they all gained an average of 3 lbs. of muscle in 3 weeks using 3 grams a day of HMB. I have it in the ID³ that 2 servings a day will give you the 3 grams a day of the HMB.

HM:     Will that stop the hypertrophy of type 2 fibers at all, if it's going to…

DAN:    No, actually you know, most of the problems of not growing are that there is too much trauma and not enough recovery time. Bodybuilders create a whole bunch of trauma and then work out again before their muscles are normal and create more trauma. You want some trauma but not too much. (Dan went on to say that it will be marketed as a diet product because realistically that is what the market calls for – but he feels depending on how you use it – it will do well as a weight gainer (as it was originally intended) or as a dieting supplement. He feels you will get more for your money than Phosphagain and other products that are at the top of the market sales wise.)

HM:     Are you surprised by the extreme following you have, almost cult like?

DAN:    (Laughs) That's news to me. First of all, I have been locked away for 30 months. I don't really socialize. I'm a real loner. My wife and I keep to ourselves. I'm quite loyal to the employees at Next Nutrition. It's like almost family up there. But I don't go to the contests too much. It's nice what readers say, but I'm not a messiah. I'm just a guy answering questions- You know … I try to solve interesting problems. I think I pretty much of this year solved a lot of damn good ones, as far as training and how to eat and everything.  I'm happier about that because before it was an easier job because all I had to solve were problems pertaining to steroids. And that's easy if you specialize on something – just steroids. It's not that hard. There is not that much written about them so all you had to do was to memorize the research and bullshit the rest. But now between the drugs, nutrients and training you have to…

HM:     Were you surprised of all the letters you received while you were in prison?

DAN:    Yea… YEA, considering I was out of the public eye and a small column a month in a minor magazine.

HM:     At one time you were quoted as saying, “The final frontier in bodybuilding would be insulin and the various areas associated with it.” Do you still feel it is the final frontier or has something changed your mind?

DAN:    Yea, but that's kind of sly because you know IGF-1 is an offshoot of insulin… Growth Hormone too. Yea probably… for Nutrition... for day to day people- all the people in the gym that look like shit. YES – obviously when they went to their high carb diets a few years ago, it just is not working. So they could work on their insulin and work on their pumpability and body fat – Yes. But drugs – who knows.  There are so many weird drugs coming available.

HM:     Especially out of Europe. Which we will touch on later in a couple of questions.

            IGF-1… Dan you seem to be standing back on this one. Colgan thinks it will bring on the age of the superfreak, while you have only spoken of its use in fat reduction. We know GH never panned out as incredible as everyone wanted it to. Do you want to make sure it is the real deal before you give it your stamp of approval? We keep hearing every imaginable scenario ranging from “the stuff is fantastic” to “didn't do anything for me”. Do you have any opinions of how it is best used? It was reported to work a lot better with GH in a study. Do you have any theories on how or what compounds (steroids, anticatabolics, insulin mimickers) could be used in a synergistic protocol for best results with IGF?

DAN:    Well Colgan really calls it all the time, doesn't he?  (Laughs)  Because he's always wrong – when Twinlabs changes their mind. Vanadyl Sulfate is toxic but now that Twin is selling it, it's not toxic anymore! But anyway, enough about Colgan. You know the thing is … I've never seen any real IGF-1. All the stuff I've seen pictures of and read about is the lab cell culture which is doctored not to bind on the carrier proteins. So it would probably be wonderful. You sent me a couple of reports and I some others and if you look at the amounts they were using, it was quite high actually. Because of a four hour half-life they were using it twice a day, at a calculated dosage of 18mg a day. That's a very high amount. And these bodybuilders are taking 50 micrograms.  And I find it hard to believe that 50 micrograms might do anything considering… God knows what they might have stacked on top of that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think IGF will be terrific once it gets cheap enough to use. And you really want it to bind on the carrier proteins. You want it last for the 4 hours. The cell culture stuff has a half life of 20 minutes, you don't want that. It's as short as Growth Hormone… you have to use high amounts. Eventually someone will offer it either out of Russia or Australia.  Of course you know, there were some side effects such as jaw pain and weird funky stuff. And it does work well with GH synergistically. They're just the opposite of each other. IGF-1 would lower your blood sugar and GH does the opposite. Together it stabilizes it. So the worst thing you could do is use IGF-1 and insulin at the same time, you would conk out. I think it has a lot of potential. The only problem with all that stuff… if you remember back to the geriatrics using GH, when they stopped using GH, within a few weeks all the benefits ceased. At least when you stop steroids, it takes a year or more for all those gains to completely disappear. And I'm afraid for the high expense of IGF-1, that when you go off it, I wonder how long it will last.

HM:     Yea, a couple people told us they used it, and they said how awesome it worked and they weren't using anything else.

DAN:    Over the phone…

HM:     Yea.

DAN:    Oh, yea you know how that goes – “I'm 190 and ripped” and you see them in real life and it's a fat piece of shit. (We are all laughing hard.) It's like on the internet, everybody is big and strong and ripped – on the computer and you meet them in real life and they are little dorks!

HM:     (Laughing) Hypothetically, if you were going to use IGF-1, would you use it with…?

DAN:    Oh yeah, steroids, GH, you would want to use it all for a synergistic effect. But definitely with Growth Hormone, all the studies say it's not only additive… put it this way… if you could get a ½ pound gain from IGF-1, and a ½ pound gain from Growth Hormone – If you put them together you wouldn't get just one pound, you would get much more, they are synergistic with the two added together… so yea, go for it.

HM:     Anything on the amounts of Growth Hormone?

DAN:    Frankly I think, nobody has used enough Growth Hormone because of the cost. The only guy I know of, the rumors were that (top WBF guy) was using like 12 IU's of GH a day. Every day. I don't know if that's true but that is pretty close to what someone should be using, for best results I would think. In the PDR, it's pretty cut and dry in what you should be using. The Genetech is not as efficient as the Lilly. It's microgram per kilogram – you can figure it out.  It seems that a lot of bodybuilders are going low in dosage. In the early 80's it was worse, the recommended dosage was 2 IU's a week at $90 bucks a pop – like 2 IU's would even do anything. And people were wondering why it didn't work…

HM:     Yea you might as well pound down some Arginine. (joke)

DAN:    I know stunted growth children were taking it 3 times a week, but I don't know why only 3 times a week. Why not every day?! It seems logical to me that it should be every day. It's just like IGF-1 is supposed to be twice a day. And GH is even shorter acting so who knows.

HM:     Do you still feel Nolvadex can be put to good use – even though studies show it to decrease serum blood IGF levels in the body by 25%? Many have theorized that it lessens the muscle gains on a steroid cycle – do you agree?

DAN:    Everyone said that even though they liked to use Nolvadex during dieting, they always found that during the off-season… they grew better without it. That was interesting. It might be the IGF-1. We somehow thought it was tied to estrogen but I don't know why. It depends. Past a certain age… like I'm 43 … if you measured my growth hormone and IGF-1 at middle age it is not very large. Would reducing it 25% make a major difference when it is so low to begin with? Probably not. It depends. As you get older, estrogen is more important to avoid for a lot of reasons, you know… prostate cancer, this and that. But when you are young, you could probably avoid Nolvadex. You know so many people have spent so much money on Nolvadex to combat gyno that they could have easily gotten the surgery for the same amount of money and cured the problem. Half of the people who go through puberty usually get some kind of gyno. They don't necessarily remember it, but it happens. And if you had gyno as an adolescent you are going to get it if you use steroids – unless you totally avoid all the things that would cause it. And I don't know if Nolvadex will help those kind of people. I don't know if it is a real preventative. Close to two bucks a tab – get the surgery.

HM:     How do you feel about Clomid's use as a prevention of gyno – Overrated? Could a 2 on 2 off program of Clomid be something in which gyno could be prevented in your opinion?

DAN:    You know Teslac is an ideal antiestrogen but we could never find it out of the country, and we looked too. Clomid … inexpensive in Mexico but very expensive here. Everyone has done quite well with it for raising testosterone if you are young enough with 2 tabs a day. As far as an… they never approved it as an antiestrogen because it was more toxic than Nolvadex. Most people who use Clomid, they are not using it all year long. The problem is everyone's using so much testosterone – not a little but a lot! Back in the 80's we thought there was some kind of precision to anabolic use but now it is not quality but quantity…

HM:     Have you had a chance to look at the other growth factors (EGF, Fibroblast growth factor, Nerve growth factor, TGF etc.) … If so, do you feel any or all of these are interesting on a muscle building standpoint?

DAN:    Oh sure! There has been some research that the Epidermal growth factor has been effective … but all the G.F.'s have been marketed at such a high price that people are unable to use high dosages. But who knows what's going to happen when prices come down and people are on some higher dosages. At the higher dosages, who knows what will be the outcome.

HM:     Have you heard any insight on the new fat hormone drug in development?

DAN:    Leptin. .. a few years ago we were talking about brown fat and having the beta 3 receptors and I believe they figured out that Leptin is one of the naturally occurring beta 3 agonists in the body. The interesting thing about beta 3 receptors is that there's not many in the body, you got many more beta 2 receptors in the muscle.  The beta 3's are only in small areas. However the nice thing about Leptin is you don't need a lot and unlike Clenbuterol, you don't down regulate the receptors. So for bodybuilding it might be pretty good. However for most of the obese people who think they are going to need it, some research has shown that they (obese) have genetically damaged beta 3 receptors that don't accept it. And many obese people have very high Leptin levels already. The body is trying to compensate so it's not going to help them too much. But it will be good for athletes because – Clenbuterol is good but only lasts 2-3 weeks at a time unless you jack up the dosage sky-high. As I mentioned on an audiotape a while ago, there is another thermogenic compound that I'll probably introduce at the end of the year. Even though I promised January 1. It is much more thermogenic than Clenbuterol and doesn't even involve those receptors at all. It is much better and cheaper. More dangerous though because if you take too much you don't get sick… you die! Because you raise your body temp over 105 degrees and your cooked brain turns to poached eggs. So I have been hesitant introducing it or writing about it without some safeguards.

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